Travis Griffith
It’s been a while since my last update, for which I apologize to the people reading along with me. I am still making progress on my reading and my only excuse for not getting another post up here in the last two weeks isn’t really an excuse: life got in the way.
For many people, reading the Bible IS a part of life, but I’m not there. I’m struggling just to make sense and comprehend the parts I have read. One theme, especially, keeps rattling around my head even though I try to just accept it and move on. I can’t stop thinking about it, no seem to make any sense out of it.
Why all the sacrifice?
I understand that that theme will hit a climax with the ultimate in human sacrifice by the time I close the back cover on this book, but I’m having a hard time with the sheer volume of human and animal sacrifice just in the Old Testament.
I know I’ve visited this topic already, but it keeps coming up and it keeps bothering me.
“Thou Shalt Not Kill.”
Of all the commandments, that’s the one that actually makes the most sense to me. Yet people kill each other. A lot. Even more surprising, they kill each other at God’s direction. For example, in Deuteronomy, Chapter 20, God says,
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all people inside will serve you in forcer labor. But if they refuse to make peace, prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the Lord your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town.
I can give example after example of cases in the Bible so far where humans deserve to be killed. Kill townspeople who don’t believe, kill people who do believe but commit certain sins, then kill rams and sheep and goats to absolve those sins. Why all the senseless killing!?
If I try to answer this myself, I tell myself that God’s chosen people deserve the land God has chosen for them and the killing is a type of sacrifice to make sure that happens.
But that answer doesn’t fly. Why would one group be worthy of God’s love but not another? Why would pagans be worthy of death at the hands of “God’s chosen people?”
Aren’t we ALL God’s chosen people?
I feel like the words I’m reading now have set a terrible precedent of killing and war that has spanned millennia; all of it justified because it’s being done in God’s name.
God is love. God is peace. I hear those phrases all the time. I read them in greeting cards and hear them in snippets of Christian conversation. But I wonder: is it true? What if you’re on the wrong side of God?
Maybe, if back in the time of Deuteronomy, someone had stood up to God when he ordered the mass killing of a town’s people, and said, “No, I believe you are a loving God and I will not kill these people. I will embrace them and love them and learn of their beliefs as I discuss with them the wonder that is you.”
Maybe God would have been so pleased he would have blessed Earth with an eternity of peace rather than let the consequences of hate corrupt our history.
How do you justify the killing in the Bible? Help me here… I’m struggling.
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Travis Griffith, Relief’s Blog Manager, is a former atheist now exploring what a spiritual life really means. His children’s book, Your Father Forever, was published in 2005 by Illumination Arts Publishing Company, Inc. Travis works from his home in Spokane, WA as a professional writer.
Travis,
I think the answer lies in the fact that the masses are easier to control with fear than with love. Boy oh boy you don’t want to question a God that will bring death, destruction and wrath. If he tells you to kill then you better do it.
It seems the average Christian these days goes to church and assumes the “Holy Bible” was dropped out of heaven by Angels, that every word in the “Holy” book is the absolute exact truth and should never be questioned, to be blindly believed as the ONLY truth. To question the bible would be to go against God and there for jeopardize eternity in heaven. So then why do we have a book that contradicts it self on every turn of the page. Tells you to love your neighbor as you would love your self but it’s okay to kill them if they don’t believe what you do? Simply because of one man, Emperor Constantine.
“In 325 A.D., there were numerous religions being practiced around the world. Constantine found it difficult to control people who worshiped gods perceived to be wiser and more powerful than any man, including the Roman Emperor. Constantine preferred to think of himself as a god, at least the most god-like man on Earth, and he fully expected everyone else to give him the respect a god like him deserved.
(he was obviously a lunatic, a power hungry mad man, yet brilliant in what he pulled off)
Therefore, Constantine decided to start his very own religion, center it around Jesus of Nazareth, make Jesus the only son of God, and make it possible for people to gain entry into Heaven ONLY if they become members of his new church and believe that Constantine, The First Pope, is the only divine human on Earth allowed to grant people access to both God and entry into Heaven.
This same lie about the Pope being the most divine of all men and the Catholic Church being the ONLY path to God and Heaven is still being sold by the Catholic Church today. They continue to threaten eternal damnation in Hell for anyone who rejects this horrendous lie.
Constantine used his power and influence to literally force people to become members of his new church, the ONLY way for people to gain access to God and Heaven. When people refused to cooperate, they were labeled heretics and either forced out of town or put to death.
Constantine’s new form of Christianity and his new church, The Church of Rome has become what we know today as the Roman Catholic Church. In order for Constantine to properly sell his new religion, help it grow, and strengthen his ability to control people at the same time, he needed a rule book, A Bible, to eliminate any confusion and make sure people were doing what he wanted them to do.
Therefore, in 325 A.D. Constantine commissioned the writing of the first bible and Constantine also served as the Editor of the first Christian Bible. Of course, he carefully constructed his Bible to be primarily a source of control for him, but this new bible and his new religion also had to be widely perceived as a source of wisdom and goodness.
Constantine carefully infused the lies he needed for control with the truth he needed to effectively sell this new religion. Many of the original teachings of Jesus and other spiritual teachers were not included in Constantine’s new Bible for obvious control reasons.
Since the discovery of both the Dead Sea Scrolls in Israel and the Nag Hammadi Library in northern Egypt in the 1940’s and 1950’s, we have learned of numerous writings from Jesus, Mary Magdalene, Thomas, Philip, and others which contain powerful teachings suppressed by Constantine.
Much of the suppressed information pertained to the teachings of Jesus and others regarding the divine nature of all things, the all pervading nature of God, the fact that everything consists of this God. They taught about the Holy Trinity actually referring to the Omnipresence of God, the Omnipotence of God, and the Omniscience of God.
Jesus, Mary, and others were all regarded as great teachers of truth. There was far more discussion about the divine feminine which Constantine’s Bible almost totally suppressed. The truth about the divinity of mankind was suppressed by Constantine.
The idea that each human being is literally a child of God, making all of us brothers and sisters so to speak was suppressed.
The idea of an eternal life in Hell was heavily emphasized by Constantine’s Bible and his new church all for obvious control reasons. Jesus and the more spiritually minded teachers freely and openly talked of the possibility of such things as reincarnation as a form of training. Those truths and character traits we fail to honor and demonstrate in one life will be honored and demonstrated in future incarnations.”
Now Constantine and church leaders could continue to control the people. If there were too many thinkers, their position would be threatened.
The masses are still being controlled today.
I give you a lot of credit for your journey reading the bible Mr. Griffith. It takes a certain kind of man to push all preconceived feelings aside and look at the words with an unbiased perspective.
In all my attempts in reading the bible and with all the religion shoved down my throat as a child I never could wrap my brain around the inconsistencies & contradictions. It all made NO sense.
There are some wonderful loving and positive parts of the bible that inspire hope & peace. I take those to heart and all the rest with a grain of salt.
I wish you all the best on your path of discovery and understanding regarding the Christian religion. I look forward to reading your interpretations in your next blog.
Elise has an awesome point and even I have my doubts about the origin of the Bible because … I know not to trust mankind. To me, the Bible is more of a poorly constructed anthology; however, the Bible teaches goodwill towards man and there’s nothing wrong with that. And there is a lot of truth in the words, much like wise advice passed from an elder to a young person.
Now with that being said, I am a Christian (for lack of a better word) and I believe in God with my whole heart even if I have my suspicions about the Holy Bible. So let’s say a group of possessed people did create the Bible (As a writer, I have been possessed by a few tales myself), then why the contradictions? Simple. The world we live in is not a black and white world, nor does the Bible have black and white rules. There is a huge amount of gray area. Thou shall not kill … but. Although I think about it a lot, I can’t kill a guy for rudely cutting me off in traffic. That would be a sin, and for those who don’t believe in sins, that would be stupid and punishable by the law. But … if I kill a guy who has entered my home and tried to take my life (a defensive wound will help out your case tremendously) well then that is A-okay. It is not a sin, and for those who don’t believe in sins, that would be just and excused by the law.
Now you also mentioned sacrifices. We don’t do that anymore. Nowadays, we sacrifice money and if you’re wary about that like I am, then you can sacrifice your time, your belongings, anything that is a sacrifice to you should be acceptable. Sacrificing by killing may have been acceptable then because they had no other way to show their loyalty, but now it is a sin (frown upon by both the law and PETA).
And as far as killing mass groups of people. That is both figuratively and literally destroying opposing ideas and beliefs. Sounds more like man talking than God, and I think Elise summed that one up for us nicely.
I submit this as a short commentary on the problem. Not all translations are created equal.
Most translations are on bible gateway for example while reading Exodus 20 you will read “thou shalt not MURDER” I propose to you that murdering and killing are not the same.
As for the people who have commented. I would remind them not to write fallacies, and or false opinions. If they were more knowledgable, they would know that the bible is the most well kept book in antiquity. With over 5,500 copies in the original Greek alone the earliest dating about 250 those are the full scrolls and codex’s , also known as books or anthologies. Before then there are many fragments dating back to about 100. As a separate bit of information there are the letters from the Apostolic fathers in which all but about 30 verses of the New testament are quote. Also separately there are translated new testaments into the popular languages of the time which date and my history is fuzzy on this one but from 150 on. I am not saying that falsehoods did not creep into any one of those separate sources but together they make a compelling argument for the validity of the bible. We in these matters should be careful to notice that most of the differences do not involve major theological points.
As a separate issue I have with the gospels know as by their supposed authors names. I will personally only deal with the “gospel of Thomas”. Which is the only one of the gnostic gospels which actually contends as a legitimate gospel. The problems with it are that it are: it is not a narrative it is only quotes supposedly from Jesus, it also has egregious errors, most notably about who will enter the kingdom of heaven Woman are restricted from entering they first have to be transformed into men(this is a paraphrase). Any actually study of the gnostic gospels will show their absence of veracity. The only people who normally claim their divine nature are the Rosicrucians as well as some atheist and agnostics.
I am not the best writer and do not claim a overwhelming amount of knowledge on this or any subject so any questions or corrections are welcome
Two obvious errors in my last statement are that quote should be changed too quoted 10 lines down and atheist and agnostics do not claim any divine nature in the gnostic gospels but i have heard them reference it many times.
I also forgot, because I was crunched for time to say something about the dead sea scrolls. The dead sea scrolls do way more to legitimize the New Testament then refute it. Because it is just Old Testament that was put in jars buried and forgotten. So basically it affirms that that copies that we poses today are legitimate in nature. Lastly the scrolls prove what Christians, I prefer followers of the way or disciples(most common reference to Christians by Christians in the Bible), had been saying for centuries. That Christ fulfilled many, some say over 600, old testament prophecies.
Specifically Elise H I am not sure which Mary you are referencing in the second word of your 11th paragraph.
I would also ask you or anyone to point out any blatant contradictions. Everyone who claims that on every other page there is a contradiction obviously has no concept of how to read the bible in context.
I further claim that there is no such thing as an unbiased opinion or reading of or about anything. I do not claim to be unbiased as a theist just as I expect atheist to be biased. We all see things through our own perspectives. Objectivity is an illusion.
I hate to sound so argumentative or disrespectful but I am not sure how to make people understand. Also I think that it is vary important for anyone to know all the facts and or look at both sides of arguments and their supposed proofs.
Umm… killing is different than murder?
In what world, Woody? I’d love to hear you rationalize that. So if I’m ever accused of murder, I can just say, “Oh no, I’m cool. I didn’t murder the guy. I just killed him. So I’m good.”
God gave direct orders to kill hundreds of thousands of people… innocent people who were otherwise just living their lives. Call it whatever you want, that is murder. And if it was all done to make a safe place for Christ eventually… only to lead to more war and death in his name?
You asked for blatant contradictions in the Bible, there’s the first two.
Nobody can know for sure, but that tells me God isn’t the only one pushing an agenda in the Bible. Is it possible… that His word was corrupted by a fallen angel?
Woody, you do sound argumentive and disrespectful, but that is okay. That is A-Okay. I understand how one can get when they believe that their beliefs are under attack. I feel the same way when others claim that there is no God, when I know without a shadow of a doubt that there is. So I understand your position; nevertheless, you jumped into a peaceful gathering and turned it into a fray needlessly. And not only that, but you’re wielding weapons that are more harmful to yourself than us.
For instance, you immediately call what we had to say “fallacies and false opinions”. Opinions and beliefs are just that – opinions and beliefs. They are given life through our faith and faith is the substance of things “hoped” for but not seen. Therefore, a belief can not be refuted or upheld with mere facts. Especially facts that are speculative (Elise) and questionable (Woody).
Secondly, you say “if we were more knowledgable”. Woody, if you were less knowledgable, maybe you would have more of an open mind. Your mind is so full of facts (that may or may not have legitmacy), that you have no room to fit possibilites. It is possible that the Bible is a geniune instrument of God, and it is also possible that the Bible is a tool created by a dictator to control the masses. There is no way that we can know for sure, and that’s why my mind is open to the possibilites. P.S. and you would be surprised at how knowledgable I am.
Anyhoo, those are the only issues that I felt like I should address. I have no issues with you or your views Woody. But being narrowminded will not help your stance, or the Christian faith. More people are being chased away from Christianity because as you so well put it, you are not sure how to make people understand.
I don’t mind answering questions,but to many at once can hinder me in explaining them correctly.
First killing and murder. To kill something is to put it to an end. To murder is to kill with a malice aforethought. That is just the difference between the definitions. To address what you were saying “Oh no, I’m cool. I didn’t murder him I killed him so I’m good.” . There are many people who kill people during war, and most consider it just while killing someone because they pissed you off is not considered just (normally).
Second Opinions and beliefs can be false some having more or less evidence backing them up. I did not think that I would have to epistemologically prove my beliefs. Even if I do i think that I could say I know barring any skeptical scenario. You do hit a point that I often think about, I am not saved by my knowledge only by faith. I don’t think my facts are questionable but not everyone thinks the same as I do.
I apologize for knowledge comment I think I was a bit upset. I think your second question is confusing. I think you mean can I know that I know or am I 100% sure that I know.
I just reread your first post. Do you believe in the inerrancy of scripture? If you do I think it is a lot harder to claim that the bible isn’t black and white.
Next on to the direct commandment of God to kill hundreds of thousands of people. For the amount to equal over a hundred thousand I think we would have to include the Israelites war with the Philistines (about 300,000 killed this is an estament my knowledge of the old testament is not as sound as the new) not counting the war there were about 100,000 others from varying tribes. Most of which inhibited the Israelites from reaching the promised land. Everyone will die at least once. God’s righteous judgement on humans for their actions shouldn’t be seen as unjust. This is a hard concept to explain,it would be easier if you read the bible and or are a Christian(I am not saying you aren’t or haven’t). I’m not sure that I am to say wether I know if these people suffered a second death
Lastly the supposed contradictions. War supposedly in the name of God doesn’t make it actually a war sanctioned by God. Neither would that be a biblical contradiction more like evidence for the sinfulness of man.
This is quite a little discussion you’ve generated, Travis (for which, Good work!). I’ve been trying to follow Jesus for most of my life and still have trouble with the holy wars and killing in the O.T., but as Don Miller has said, that doesn’t mean we can ignore or explain them away. Timothy Keller likes to point out that that kind of thinking privileges one’s own culture, historical position over previous ones, which is not very tolerant. While an ethic of universal love is wonderful, we need to distinguish between a love that flows from relationship with the source of love, truth, and beauty and a love that is really a cover for fear – fear, at best, of our own power which has been so often abused in the past, or at worst, of people not liking us.
Frankly, I think our historical moment, after Christ’s redemptive work, makes it easier to deal with the O.T. than it must have been for the O.T. prophets. Abraham asked God not to destroy Sodom, but he knew he wouldn’t be able to find enough truly righteous men. Nowadays we don’t have to – Christ has obviated the old system of sin and sacrifice with his one final sacrifice. But that’s an evasion. The only real answer I’ve come up with is that sin is an uglier truth than we like to admit, and even our own submission and devotion to Christ often depends on repressing our sin-nature in hopes that being good and feeling good things will be enough.
I don’t know enough about the Constantine hypothesis to do it real justice, but my sense, when I’ve heard it, is that it’s a convenient fiction for critics of the church to reduce revelation to the will to power. But if everything is the will to power, why should I trust any one’s word, and isn’t all life really a struggle for dominance? There’s something to put your faith in!
Anyhow, the Bible was compiled on more diverse principles than one emperor’s need for consolidating power. You might check out this brief synopsis.
One last thing this conversation brings up is the nature of Christian discourse. Krista Tippet has been doing a series on Civil Conversations that seeks to foster more productive discourse among increasingly divergent views.
Woody: I agree with Bennie that some of your rhetoric rings of a kind of arrogance typical of ideologues (Christian or otherwise) and thus rubs me the wrong way – especially out of a Christian. But I appreciate your openness to hearing critiques of your ideas. I also thought Elise’s and Bennie’s comments had problems of logic and theology, but I hope my above remarks demonstrate a respectful, measured engagement with them.
Thanks to you all for really tackling this post!
I have also had these doubts but have dispelled them by reading the bible more studiously and also obtaining information on historical facts.ie-the caananates were horrible pople who sacrificed their children in the fire and practiced every vile thing imaginable.God -Jehovah in every recorded instance has always given advance warning of the action he will take against them to give them chance to change,Note what he said to Abraham when he challenged Gods decision to destroy Sodom and gomorrah-If there are 10 righteous people there I will pardon the whole city.Jehovah God does not kill people indiscriminately like men nor does he sanction the killing of innocent people in the nations greedy wars over land and oil or fanatical religious ideals.When he sanctions killing it is in only because the people are wicked,will not change and he personally authorized them ,not some imperfect human with his own hidden agenda.My recommendation is to study the bible deeply,read the context and surrounding verses,cross reference with other parts of the bible to dispel your doubts this is what I have done.And if you want to know the truth about the bible,God,religion and killing I dare you to forget all you have been told about Jehovahs witnessess and ask them to show you and explain the answers from the bible ,you will know its the truth when you hear what they have to say.